[meteorite-list] We; ; researched, well documented, and way wrong: gloatting part 1

E.P. Grondine epgrondine at yahoo.com
Wed Mar 7 08:51:53 EST 2018

Hi all, - 

Mt Grondine here to do a little gloating

Message: 5Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <bristolia at yahoo.com>
Subject: [meteorite-list] The Imaginary Mucks of Alaska and Siberia
    was    "Arrowheads from NWA"
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Message-ID: <20070611153243.84348.qmail at web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
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In the post "Arrowheads from NWA", Mr. Grondine wrote:

?The impact that produced the Alaskan and Siberian 
mucks, and altered the north Pacific currents, and the
world's weather, are covered in my book "Man and
Impact in the Americas".?

One major problem is that the so-called "Alaskan and Siberian 
mucks" exist only in the very vivid imagination of various 
catastrophists, i.e. Deloria (1997), Hapgood (1970), and 
Velikovsky (1955). Over the last sixty years, numerous papers
have shown that the descriptions of the so-called "Alaskan and
Siberian mucks" by Hibben (1942, 1946) and Rainey (1940) are 
grossly incorrect and completely refuted the interpretations, 
which they have made of their catastrophic origin. 

A typical description of muck is:

"In Alaska, for example, thick frozen deposits of 
volcanic ash, silts, sands, boulders, lenticles and 
ribbons of unmelted ice, and countless relics of late 
Pleistocene animals and plants lie jumbled together 
in no discernible order. This amazing deposit, 
usually referred to as 'muck', has been described 
by Dr Rainey as containing: '... enormous numbers 
of frozen bones of extinct animals, such as mammoth, 
mastodon, super bison and horse, as well as brush, 
stumps, moss and freshwater molluscs (281)'."

It has now been proved that such descriptions are nothing more 
than imaginative fiction, which have been soundly refuted by 
over 50 years of research and numerous peer-reviewed papers 
and monographs, which have been published by the Quaternary 
geologist, who have studied these deposits for decades.

As proved by numerous published peer-reviewed papers and 
monographs, including Berger (2003), Bettis et al. (2003), 
Guthrie (1990), McDowell and Edwards (2001), Muhs et al. 
(2001, 2003, 2004), Pewe (1955, 1975a, 1975b, 1989), and 
Westgate et al. (1990), the claim that these deposits consist 
of  "thick frozen deposits of volcanic ash, silts, sands, boulders, 
lenticles and ribbons of unmelted ice, and countless relics of 
late Pleistocene animals and plants lie jumbled together in no 
discernible order" is false. Instead, as described in numerous 
publications, specifically Guthrie (1990), Muhs et al. (2003), 
Pewe (1955, 1975a, 1975b, 1989), and Westgate et al. (1990), 
the deposits, which are often referred to as ?Alaskan muck? 
consist of a well-ordered, layer-cake sequence of stratigraphic
units containing distinct paleosols and buried forests with in 
situ tree stumps. As seen in Figures 20 and 29 of Pewe (1975); 
Figure 4 of Pewe et al. (1997); and the measured sections of
Westgate et al. (1990), the so-called ?muck? consists of well-
defined geologic layers, which are only jumbled where the 
surface has been disturbed by either thermokarst, landslides, 
solifluction, or some combination of these processes. The total 
thickness of the Quaternary deposits, which have been designated 
as ?muck? is only 10 to 20 m (33 to 66 ft) as their thickest, 
which become thinner upslope.

Satrting with Pewe (1955), Quaternary geologists have recognized 
the presence of 7 well-defined stratigraphic units, which the 
deposits that are falsely described as being ?jumbled together 
in no discernible order?. Some of these stratigraphic units, i.e. 
the Ready Bullion Formation, Engineer Loess, Goldstream 
Formation, Gold Hill Loess, and the Fairbanks Loess, consist
of silt, which have been demonstrated to consist of a combination
of  wind-blown silt called "loess" and sediments moved down-hill 
by slopewash and solifluction. Some stratigraphic units, i.e. the 
Dawson Cut and Eva Formations, contain buried, in situ forests 
that are rooted in "fossil" soils, which are called ?paleosols?. 
Other stratigraphic units , i.e. the Tanana Formation, Fox 
Gravel, and Cripple Gravel, consist of gravels, which often 
contain gold and demonstrated to have been deposited by 
streams (Bettis et al. 2003; Pewe 1955, 1975a, 1975b, 1989; 
Pewe et al. 1997; Westgate et al. 1990; Muhs et al. 2001, 
2003, 2004).

In addition, the contacts between these stratigraphic units are 
well-defined, persistent, and easily mappable. The forest beds, 
ice-wedge casts, and buried soils, which are found associated 
with the contacts demonstrate the periods of nondeposition 
lasting thousands to tens of thousands years occurred between 
the deposition different stratigraphic units. They soundly 
refute the claim that the ?Alaskan muck? accumulated during a 
single catastrophic event. Even within individual stratigraphic 
units, paleosols can be found indicating that the accumulation 
of sediments comprising individual them was not continuous being 
interrupted by periods of either nondeposition and landscape 
stability or erosion (Bettis et al. 2003; Pewe 1955, 1975a, 
1975b, 1989; Pewe et al. 1997; Westgate et al. 1990; Muhs et 
al. 2001, 2003, 2004).

Rainey (1940) and Hibbens (1942, 1946) were wrong in their 
claims that the remains plant and animal fossils occur randomly
together throughout the ?Alaskan muck?. The fossils, rather 
subfossils of trees are typically limited to one of three buried
forest beds, which have been mapped within the so-called
 ?Alaskan muck?. For example as shown in Figure 29 of Pewe 
(1975a), buried forest containing in situ tree stumps at the
top of the Fox Gravel, the Gold Hill Loess, and the Goldstream 
Loess. Each of these buried forests are characterized by the 
in situ stumps of mature trees rooted in buried soils developed 
in the top of each of these units (Pewe 1975a, 1975b, 1989;
Pewe et al. 1997). These buried forests consist of the stumps 
and fallen trunks of forests buried in place by colluvial deposits 
or solifluction lobes. Papers and monographs published in the
last fifty years have shown the claims and descriptions made
by Rainey (1940) and Hibben (1942, 1946) concerning the 
abundance and distribution of fossil bones to be grossly 
exaggerated and quite inaccurate.

Mr. Grondine continued:

" It is too bad these mucks are not absolutely dated
yet. But 11,000 BCE would be a late date for Bessey's
"arrowheads" (points) - most are likely far older."

The fact of the matter is that both the ?Alaskan and Siberian 
mucks? have been repeatedly dated by luminescence and optical 
stimulated luminescence dating and dating of any volcanic ash 
layers found in them. The younger ?muck deposits? have been 
dated by radiocarbon dating and the archaeological remains, 
which they contain. These dates demonstrate that the sediments, 
which are haphazardly and incorrectly lumped together as a single
?Alaskan muck?, episodically accumulated over a period of 2 
to 3 million years, with the youngest deposits having accumulated
as recently as 7,000 to 8,000 years ago. The youngest forest bed, 
the Eva Forest Bed, dates to the last interglacial, about 125,000 
years ago as determined by Pewe et al. (1997). It and the ?muck? 
beneath it are far too old to be related to any terminal Pleistocene
catastrophe. The oldest forest bed, the Dawson Cut Forest Bed, 
has been found to be almost 2 million years old by Westgate et 
al. (2003). These dates, paleosols, and in situ forest beds, 
indicate that the ?Alaskan muck? did not accumulate as the 
result of one event, but rather represents periods during which 
loess and other sediments accumulated separated by very long
periods, thousands to tens of thousands of years, during which
there was a  lack of any accumulation of ?muck? (Berger 2003,
Muhs et al. (2001, 2003, 2004), Pewe (1955, 1975a, 1975b, 
1989), Pewe et al. (1997), and Westgate et al. (1990).

In case of the ?Siberian muck?, there are numerous published, 
peer-reviewed papers and monographs, which also refute all of 
what Deloria (1997), Hapgood (1970), Velikovsky (1955), and 
others have written about it. What these papers and monographs 
prove is that the so-called ?Siberian muck?, like the ?Alaskan 
mucks? consist of multiple well-defined and recognizable 
stratigraphic units that are **not ** ?jumbled together in no 
discernible order?. They demonstrate that many of these units 
typically occur in an ordered and predictable layer caked fashion
and are both separated by and internally contain well defined 
paleosols, which represent periods during, which the deposition
of the so-called ?Siberian muck? ceased for periods of hundreds
to thousands and tens of thousands years and allowed the 
formation of mature soils. The Siberian muck as described by
Deloria (1997), Hapgood (1970), and Velikovsky (1955), 
exists only in the rather vivid imagination of these writers.

In addition these publications contain numerous luminescence,
optical stimulated luminescence, and radiocarbon dates along
with artifacts found within them, that date the age of the 
various stratigraphic units comprising the ?Siberian muck?. At 
one location, these dates and paleosols show distinct periods 
during which the ?Siberian muck? accumulated  between 
18,000 to 28,000 BP, around 40,000 to 50,000 BP, and about 
89,000 BP (Frechen and Yamskikh 1999). Rutter et al. (2003)
dated individual stratigraphic units within the ?Siberian muck?,
which are separated by paleosols, as being as old as 88,000, 
101,000 to 109,000, and 130,000 BP. These and many, many 
other dates soundly and repeatedly refute any connection 
between the deposition of the ?Siberian muck? and any 
terminal Pleistocene catastrophe.

(Note this is a revision of previous essay, which I have 
written about the ?Alaskan muck?.)


Berger, Glenn W., 2003, Luminescence chronology of Late 
Pleistocene loess-paleosol and tephra sequences near Fairbanks, 
Alaska. Quaternary Research. vol. 60, no. 1, Pages 70-83.

Bettis, E. A., Muhs, D. R., Robert, H. M., and Wintle, A. G., 
2003, Last Glacial loess in the conterminous USA.
Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 22, no. 18-19, 
pp. 1907-1946

Deloria, Vine, Jr., 1997, Red Earth, White Lies: Native 
Americans and the Myth of Scientific Fact. Fulcrum 
Publishing. Golden, Colorado.

Frenchen, M., and Yamskikh, 1995, Upper Pleistocene loess
stratigraphy in the southern Yenisei Siberia area. Jounral
of the Geological Society of London. vol. 156, pp. 515-525.

Gutherie, R. D., 1990, Frozen Fauna of the Mammoth Steppes: 
The Story of Blue Babe. University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 

Hapgood, C. H., 1970, The Path of The Pole. Chilton Book 
Company. New York, New York.

Hibben, Frank C., 1942, Evidences of early man in Alaska. 
American Antiquity. vol. 8, pp. 254-259.

Hibben, Frank C., 1946. Lost Americans. Crowell. New York, 
New York.

Muhs, D. R., Ager T. A., and Beg?t, J. E., 2001, Vegetation 
and paleoclimate of the last interglacial period, central Alaska
Quaternary Science Reviews. vol.  20, no. 1-3, pp. 41-61.

Muhs, D. R., McGeehin, J. P, Beann, J., and Fisher, E., 2004,
Holocene loess deposition and soil formation as competing 
processes, Matanuska Valley, southern Alaska. Quaternary 
Research. vol. 61, no. 3, pp. 265-276

Muhs, D. R., Ager, T. A., and Beg?t, J., 2004, Stratigraphy and
palaeoclimatic significance of Late Quaternary loess?palaeosol 
sequences of the Last Interglacial?Glacial cycle in central 
Alaska. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 22, no. 18-19, 
pp. 1947-1986.

McDowell, P. F., and Edwards, M. E., 2001, Evidence of 
Quaternary climatic variations in a sequence of loess and 
related deposits at Birch Creek, Alaska: implications for the 
Stage 5 climatic chronology. Quaternary Science Reviews, 
vol. 20, no.1-3, pp. 63-76.

Pewe, T. L., 1955, Origin of the upland silt near Fairbanks, 
Alaska. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 66, 
no. 6, pp. 699-724.

Pewe, T. L., 1975a, Quaternary Geology of Alaska. U.S. 
Geological Survey Professional Paper 835, 145 pp.

Pewe, T. L., 1975b, Quaternary Stratigraphic Nomenclature in 
Central Alaska. U.S. Geological Survey Professional Paper 
no. 862, 32 pp. http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/pp/pp862

Pewe, T. L., 1989, Quaternary stratigraphy of the Fairbanks 
area, Alaska. in Late Cenozoic History of the Interior Basins 
of Alaska and the Yukon. U.S. Geological Survey Circular 
no. 1026, pp. 72-77.

Pewe, T. L., Berger, G. W., Westgate, J. A., Brown, P. A., and 
Leavitt, S. W., 1997, Eva Interglacial Forest Bed, Unglaciated 
East-Central Alaska. Geological Society of America Special 
Paper no. 319, 54 pp.

Rainey, F., 1940, Archaeological Investigations in Alaska. 
American Antiquity. vol. 5, pp. 299-308.

Rutter, N. W., Rokosh, D., Evans, M. E., Little, E. C., Chlachula, 
J., and Velichko, A., 2003, Correlation and interpretation of 
paleosols and loess across European Russia and Asia over 
the last interglacial-glacial cycle. Quaternary Research. 
vol. 60, no. 1, Pages 101-109.

Velikovsky, Immanuel, 1955. Earth in Upheaval. Doubleday 
and Company, Garden City, New York.

Westgate, J. A., Stemper, B. A., and Pewe, T. L., 1990, A 3 
m.y. record of Pliocene-Pleistocene loess in interior Alaska. 
Geology. vol. 18, no. 9, p. 858-861.

Westgate, John A., Preece, Shari J., and Pewe, Troy L., 2003, 
The Dawson Cut Forest Bed in the Fairbanks area, Alaska, is 
about two million years old. Quaternary Research. vol. 60, 
no. 1, Pages 2-8.



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